228 - Commandos to Curious: Chris Sykes-Popham's Journey from Scepticism to Openness and Recovery

Chris Sykes-Popham shares how he goes from an adventurous Royal Marines career into a brutal ME/CFS crash, then back to full recovery and a life rebuilt around balance and self-trust. We explore perfectionism, invisible illness, and why nervous system regulation can feel like the least popular answer yet still be the most practical path forward. 

• Early warning signs like post-exertional payback and brain fog 
• Losing a former identity and rebuilding meaning after recovery 
• Balance as a daily check for kindness and sustainability 
• Extreme striving and the hidden costs of perfectionism 
• Gender, emotional expression, and the pressure of invisible illness 
• Responsibility versus blame and finding agency again 
• Openness, curiosity, and why timing matters for mind-body work 
• Nervous system regulation as a common thread in recovery stories 
• Studying the recovered and looking for repeatable trends 
• Testing the nervous system theory symptom by symptom 

We would love to continue this conversation - or have the one we originally planned - so please do get in touch with thoughts, questions & scepticism! 

Links: 

• Try Freeme FREE for 6 sessions  https://freemehealth.com/getfreeme
• CONNECT WITH CHRIS:
  Website — https://freemehealth.com/getfreeme
  Instagram —   / the.freeme.app  

For more information about Long Covid Breathing courses & workshops, please check out LongCovidBreathing.com

(music credit - Brock Hewitt, Rule of Life)

Transcript

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Welcome And Meet Chris

Jackie Baxter 0:45

I'm delighted to be joined today by Chris Sykes -Popham. So yeah, welcome, Chris. It's lovely to have you here.

Chris Sykes-Popham 0:56

Thank you. Thank you very much. Always good to chat to someone with a similar journey. And yeah, lovely to talk about these things full stop.

Jackie Baxter 1:04

Absolutely. So before we dive in, would you be able to just say a little bit about yourself and what brought you here?

Chris Sykes-Popham 1:12

Yeah, of course. I think anyone working in this field has, we all have such similar stories, don't we? But my story was a five-year journey with METFS. And the first four years or so were manageable. I was still capable of doing things. And then the last year was really, really tough. It's you know a very British understatement. The last year was horrendous. And before any of this happened, I was a Royal Marines Commando officer. And so my life was active, busy. And even when I wasn't doing military things, I would be out skiing, mountaineering, paragliding, I don't know, anything adventurous. And that was my life and the way I lived in. And it was incredibly rewarding. And at some point I started noticing some symptoms coming in.

From Elite Fitness To Collapse

Chris Sykes-Popham 2:00

And it's things which I then recognized from my last year when things were really tough. It was those same things that started to rear their heads. So I would do some training and I would pay a price for it. So I might go to the gym one day, and then for the next few days, I would wake up just feeling really unrefreshed. I wouldn't be able to, it's hard to almost explain it, isn't it? What things like brain fog, but I just couldn't get through a to-do list. I couldn't do things like I normally would. And then the next day after the after a few days, I would wake up and I could suddenly smash through a to-do list again and I would get back at it. Um and I didn't think anything of it. I was doing a stressful job. And that comparison is probably quite useful for context because for the last three, four years of my military career, I was deployed in operations, back-to-back operations in different countries across the world and doing probably 18 to 20 hour days. And I was doing all that without symptoms. And then there's a gap before my symptoms get worse. So, you know, in some ways at the time, I could absolutely just write things off as, oh, this is burnout, or this is my body responding normally to what happens when you do it. But then when I took all of that pressure away, when I when I when I took a long break and long periods of holiday and everything else, and then I went back home and had left the military at this point, my symptoms started getting worse and worse and worse. And the more I rested, the more I did everything you know you do as a response to it, the worse they got. And that last year was um horrendous. There's no way of describing it. It's it's it is why I'm here now. You can't go through something like that and not it not have a huge effect on your life. I thought my life as I knew it was over. I was had many ambitions, goals, things I wanted to do. I was um I had so many hobbies that I loved. And suddenly I thought my life as I knew it was over. And that was is probably the most profound thing I've been through in my life and the hardest thing I've been through in my life. And then I recovered, I fully recovered. Uh, and that was huge as well. I couldn't, and I I couldn't just carry on living my life and forget everything I've been through. The the period where I what I thought my life was over, and then I get it back. Um, that was wild, beyond wild. So I think that's what means I'm still here. I think what that I think that's the my sense of purpose. And I yeah, I can't forget it and I can't let it go. It's too too big a thing to happen.

Jackie Baxter 4:30

Yeah, absolutely. And I I think every experience we have changes us, right? You know, that that is how we live our lives, isn't it? That our experiences, whether they are good or bad or completely neutral, um, you know, they have an impact on us. So it makes total sense that when you go through a huge experience like this that is that is like the worst thing you've ever experienced, you know, then there's it's very difficult to describe how horrendous that experience is, but to then come out the other side, you do change as a result of that. And certainly for me, I would say I'm a better person, I I think, um, than I was before.

Chris Sykes-Popham 5:12

How can you not be changed by it? You know, in every single sense. And I think if you I agree, if you get through it, in so many people report that it's one of the best things that ever happened to them. And I would I would say that. I think it is uh now as a force for good. I would think very differently, and I would understand it. Anyone going through it currently wouldn't think the same way. But having come out the other side, I feel like it's a very positive thing to have gone through.

Jackie Baxter 5:42

Yeah, so that kind of, if it doesn't kill you, it makes you stronger, I think.

Chris Sykes-Popham 5:47

Maybe I don't know. Um I guess what I'm referring to is that I feel like the things that allowed me to recover are the are the things I would want in life anyway, living a more fuller, truer life, true to myself, a more um positive life, uh life more in touch with my emotions, living more helpful way and living in more balance. And the things that were driving me maybe to do some of the more extreme things in again in more balance. And all of those things have added up to, I think, yeah, leading a far more positive and rewarding life. Yeah.

Jackie Baxter 6:25

Yeah. I mean, yeah, I I would agree with with that for sure. Um, I still love the adventure, but I also value sitting in the beach with a book and the

Recovery And A Changed Life

Jackie Baxter 6:35

kind of the quieter sides of of that as well.

Chris Sykes-Popham 6:39

I'm exactly the same. I I I'm I can't have to, it's funny. I I touched on it there, but like there were things on my life before that were that in some ways were were extreme. And I think it is not the activities, the things themselves. I don't think there's anything wrong with some of the stuff that I was doing, always um, you know, like I was always like you see, maybe seeking adventure, but it was maybe the place that it was coming from, and maybe it was coming from an unhelpful place. And I'm now a bit more curious as to why I was always pushed to do extreme things. But when I first heard this, firstly I just completely discounted it. I was like, no, what are you on about? And then somebody, I think a little voice in my head was like, hang on, you don't even to join the Royal Marines, for example, thousands apply each year, and a few get through, and then you put yourself through pretty much pure hell. You know, that's not a normal thing to really volunteer through. And then I can see that cutting across that same uh extreme approach, cutting across every aspect of my life. If I was adventuring, I wanted to be doing extreme adventure. If I was, I always was, I was always training, I wanted to be fitter, stronger, better. I wanted to um be developing physically. And I don't know, being fitter is not a bad thing. It's the place that it was coming from in me. I had to slowly come to terms with and recognize that it hadn't didn't all come from good places.

Jackie Baxter 8:01

So running at 150% all the time, kind of thing. I mean, I I can relate to a lot of what you're saying. I mean, I mean, on some level with the sort of need to adventure. And um yeah, I I think for me it's valuing both because you know, adventure is exciting and I I need that in my life. But absolutely it's got to be, you know, my word last year was balance and you know, it was really trying to find this way of balancing out this kind of needing to challenge myself and wanting to explore new things and adventure and you know, all of this stuff that I find so exciting and that makes me, you know, just you know, so excited to be alive, but also the other side of that, the kind of quieter, stiller side that I would never have given any time for before. Whereas actually, you know, it's it's okay and it's really quite enjoyable to sit on a beach and read a book or to listen to the waves or to just sit and stare out the window. And you know, I I think even now there are times where I feel that I don't have enough stillness in my life and I'm so busy, busy, busy and needing a little bit more of that. And you know, we we were saying just before we we came on that um, you know, I I had a holiday a couple of weeks ago. I think you you've uh you just backed from one as well, and you know, that that need to be switched off, to be away from stuff, you know, to put those boundaries around your time and you know, to do the things that really, you know, that that put joy in your life and that fill you up. Um, but that's not always the things that we used to think they were all of the time.

Chris Sykes-Popham 9:44

I I couldn't agree more. It's such a it's a hard concept to sell balance because it's the least sexy, exciting concept in the world. It's like, oh, have you considered being more balanced? And yet I find it one of the most useful, important things to ask myself just to check in and say, hey, this plan you've got to achieve these 20 things in the next two months, blah, blah, blah, and do all these things at the same time as everything else. Is it balanced? And asking myself that question has been one of the most useful things ever. Is it balanced? Is it kind to myself? And if the answer is yes, then I'll do it. And yeah, I I uh yeah, just spent a week skiing. I could not agree more about adventure.

Balance After Long Illness

Chris Sykes-Popham 10:25

That adventure is part of the balance. You need you need adventure. And um, yeah, I'm sold. I'm sold on balance.

Jackie Baxter 10:32

Yeah, totally. And I think, yeah, if someone had said that to me, you know, six years ago before I got unwell, I would have told them to sod off, you know, I'd have been like, no, no, I'm go, go, go. This is what I have, this is what I do. I don't want to be still, that's boring. You know, there's time for that when I'm 90. Uh, you know, I've got to live my life while I have it, kind of thing. And it's uh it's amazing how that can change.

Chris Sykes-Popham 10:58

Yeah. Balance is part of living life, though, isn't it? And a full life includes balance. And our ability to enjoy things uh when we're also stiller or going at a slower pace, um, it is so important. And I think also the informant here to make a caveat, which I which is that I'm I'm not an I'm not saying that people um should just be doing less in order to avoid symptoms. I don't have to avoid symptoms in any way. Hopefully it's the same for you. Uh, but that's not why I'm doing this. I still still think I'm and know I'm capable of all those things. It's just that uh if I were to endlessly do them coming from the wrong place, then that's when I might find myself um coming unstuck in some way. I still have the capacity, my body is I'm still fit and uh and capable of all them.

Jackie Baxter 12:28

But um it doesn't mean that it doesn't mean that we should always be going at 100 miles an hour for the sake of it, does it I mean, you know, we learn all these things in recovery in order to get better, and you know, we get better and that's great, and life is wonderful, and it's also totally flawed, you know, and and recovery is is beautifully imperfect because that's what life is. But I think um what I realized once I was better was that it was about maintenance and like using those things that I'd learned in recovery in order to stay well. And that didn't mean that my life was restricted in any way. It was more that by learning those lessons and taking those things on board, it allowed me to live a better and more healthy and more happy and more balanced life, or whatever you want to call it. And uh, you know, actually I'm probably fitter than I was before. I'm certainly healthier than I was before. But I think you know, we that that I mean, what I realized was that health and fitness were not the same thing, whereas I always assumed they were. And suddenly it's like, oh, oh, they're not the same thing. Like you can be really fit and really unhealthy.

Chris Sykes-Popham 13:48

I was the living, breathing example. I ate uh on at times for months of time on some perfect diet. I would train once and sometimes twice a day, and yet I was deeply unhealthy. Uh I couldn't, yeah. It it we do fundamentally need to break out from a model where we only look at it um in certain, for me, a purely biological way. And I um yeah, I think we all recognize, uh even taking out completely out of the discussion, I don't know, things like stress impact our physical health. We absolutely accept that. Um, and I think, yeah, we need to broaden it. But I mean, you I was not remotely interested in anything like this, or I wasn't interested. I didn't, I didn't um if you'd have started to talk to me exactly the same as you about balance five years ago when I was unwell, then I would have just, yeah, I'd just would be interested. I it to it takes something like MECFS or long COVID to to really to um to really change your life. And I think that is almost, or at least it was for me, part of it. It was the it was the wake-up call, it was the like my body saying, no, no, I'm gonna keep I'm gonna keep telling you until you listen. I'm gonna keep keep giving you this message and it's gonna get stronger and stronger and stronger until you do something and change something.

Jackie Baxter 15:02

Yeah. And do you think that like, you know, without wanting to get too deeply into gender stereotypes, but do you do you think that as a guy that that message is harder? Or are there are there certain kinds of you know, showing weakness and you know that those sorts of things that make that challenging, or is it maybe different?

Chris Sykes-Popham 15:27

I think there are absolutely um different challenges for both sexes, and I think they are uh firstly, I guess 75% of people roughly give or take uh with MECFS and non-COVID are female, and so I think that instantly tells us something. And with my own personal views on the condition that our brain and body do interact, I think there has to be a part of it is down to um a number of challenges we have for society and how we uh how women um the struggles that women face, uh, the perceptions they might have. Um, and then yes, as a guy as well, I

Chasing Extremes And Perfectionism

Chris Sykes-Popham 16:06

really found it. I think that uh a number of things um are deeply unhelpful. We, I mean, for example, I believe that emotional expression plays a role, a a role, one amongst many things that can keep the nervous system on flight or flight and contribute to these conditions. One of many things. But that as an example in men is particularly like I was not taught as a Royal Marines commando to express and feel my emotions. That was not part of the basic training syllabus. And so, yes, I think we are wired as a society to not do that and to do so many things that are unhelpful for these conditions. We were talking just before this call with me about perfectionism, and that's another example where society values perfectionism. Perfection is why I've managed to succeed in my life, uh, and also it has some unhelpful traits that I believe are deeply unhelpful for people with these conditions as well. And I think both men and women face it. Uh, yeah, in different ways, probably.

Jackie Baxter 17:09

Yeah, I I think you're right. I mean, it it's it's got to be different, and you know, it's it's not as simple as one or the other as well, because everyone is totally individual. Um, but yes, I think certainly there are stereotypes in the world that make things more challenging for certain people. And yeah, you know, I think, you know, again, and not not trying to say that men have an easier ride because they don't, but it's you know, it's a very different thing, isn't it? I think for females that again, I can't remember the exact statistic, but you know, have to work harder for the same promotions, have to work harder for the same money. Um often, not always, but often caring roles, whether it's children or elderly parents, tend to fall to females, you know, and before you even add on, you know, extra additional stress due to hormones, um, you know, that there's a huge amount of stuff there, isn't it? Um, you know, and I almost wonder, you know, that you know, the majority, as you say, of people with long COVID MECFS, these conditions are women. Um and you know, you can sort of start to understand a little bit of why about why that might be. And I'm thinking, you know, obviously that's horrendous, and that's something that we need to address as a society, right? Um, but also I don't know if that in itself also makes it harder for guys because there are fewer of them. And I I don't know if there's something there that makes that a challenge, you know. I again, I think it's it's ever it's challenging for everyone in different ways, isn't it?

Chris Sykes-Popham 18:55

It is, yeah. I wonder though if general society, I mean, there's such poor understanding of these conditions anyway. I wonder if general society don't even, you know, they probably don't even know that statistic. Um, it's not something I I genuinely didn't feel any pressure because the majority of people with a condition were female at all. But I think you're really on something about why potentially women may have it worse. I mean, hey, look, I am a I was a 30-something um Raw Marines Commando. So I felt like I had all these things, like I had so much things to so my friends, and this is this is me being completely honest of what was going through my brain when I was at my worst. So you absolutely, I was wondering about my perceptions. If I had a broken leg, then I would go to around and my friends say, look, here's this blaster cast on my leg, and I've got a broken leg. And I really did think about what people would think about me with this condition where there's no clear and obvious physical cause. And uh I felt that pressure as a yeah, as a as a man who'd spent his life doing physical things, who had like tangible things you know you could point to. And most of my friends were, or many of my friends are in the military, and if not, they'd known some of the things I'd gone through. You know, I just as I said had finished, um, had finished back-to-back operational tours for days where I'd, you know, worked 20-hour days of standard for weeks or months on end. And so I had all these things that I could kind of point to in my own head that made me kind of feel better. Say, you know, that and when people would talk about it, well, they would at least be able to say, well, yeah, you you know, you used to be in the Marines, whatever. So they presume that I was really fit and um and everything else. And if

Gender, Emotion And Invisible Illness

Chris Sykes-Popham 20:32

I didn't have those things, imagine I just I cannot imagine what it would be like. Imagine getting it, I don't know, when uh when you're younger as well, when you're like 16, 18, when you don't have any kind of um evidence almost to point to. So I can't imagine. I feel incredibly lucky and grateful, and I should acknowledge that that um I struggled with that element of it, even though I had things which um which would traditionally mean that, yeah, you you know, that you I don't know, that I don't know, that that made it less likely that I might be making it up or putting it on or something like that. So even with them, I still struggled.

Jackie Baxter 21:08

The the plaster cast on your your leg when you break your leg kind of thing, you know, I I think it's so difficult, isn't it, with what we call, you know, these invisible conditions. Because I think, you know, we as a society are pretty visual, you know, you have to see it to believe it kind of thing. And, you know, with a with a broken leg, for example, you get an x-ray and you get a cast on your leg and you get a pair of crutches, and then all your friends will come and sign your cast. And uh, you know, and there's almost that kind of like kind of look what I did kind of kind of thing, isn't there? I I think around that. Um and um and then you have something like long COVID MECFS where there's no test that it will show up on, you know, so much of what's going on in you is totally invisible, or anything that is visible is generally not sin for people because they don't see you on your bad days. You know, you're crushed out in bed with the lights off. So it I think it is very, very difficult for people to really understand it if they haven't gone through it, which I think is the value of that lived experience and of working with someone who does have that. But um what you were saying as well, I I I was thinking as you were speaking that I think a lot of us, you know, it's not everybody, but so many people who develop these conditions were, you know, quite fit and active beforehand. And certainly what people said to me was, oh, well, you know, that shouldn't have happened to you. You were you were fit, you know, that that's uh that that's not right, kind of thing. And it's almost like there's that level of not being believed because how could this happen to you because you were so fit and healthy?

Speaker 23:00

Yeah, wow, okay. Yeah, yeah.

Chris Sykes-Popham 23:04

Yeah, I I had that too. Um, but I hadn't considered it that way around, which is really interesting. And yeah, I mean, time and time again, we see it anecdotally, and then we also there are studies that show certain um certain personality traits being risk factors, i.e., the you know, the the greater degree of measurable. measurable perfectionism, for example, seems to correlate with with great instances of these conditions. And I find that really interesting. And it was one, again, one small piece, um, one small piece of evidence that that what's going on in our brain can influence our body and may have a part to play in this. And I would found it, I would have found it so much easier to disregard and ignore if it didn't tally directly with my experience, i.e., when I actually had a long, spent a long time looking at myself, realizing that I think I was a perfectionist and attempting to be an overachiever and a people pleaser and various other things. And I guess for people who don't know the background, yes, there are a number of conditions which are believed to be associated with these personality traits. They're believed to be associated with these conditions. And it's contested. But yeah, I had to look at myself and say it would have been so hard if I hadn't gone along that list and gone tick, tick, tick, tick, like that's me, that's me. And with other people I have known. And I've done it so many times since and had phone calls from other people struggling and old colleagues struggling. And again you look through lists and your first thing you think is wow, I remember that person when they used to you know be doing X, Y, and Z, and they were an absolute machine. They were always training. They're incredibly fit and they were so capable. How could that happen to that person? I still do it now. And then I still also then go down that list that I the new list I have in my head and and uh and go check check check check with all those things. And so I for me personally I strongly believe there is that link between personality traits and these conditions. I I don't know it's that um idea of if there's a personality trait that is contributing or you know is is related to the condition let's say that that can be perceived as being your fault that you're ill yeah right I don't see any part of this that could be somebody's fault personally I just um the idea that it could be someone's fault um seems pretty ludicrous to me personally no one no one would intentionally go through this no one would ever put themselves in that state uh there is no human being um alive that would do that themselves and so I I find that a bit bit um wild personally having been there you know you know the idea that someone would willingly experience that I can't get my head round um yeah but it doesn't mean as well that I also like the idea that I'm in control. I love the idea that I can do things about this that I'm that I might have um responsibility for me is a very good thing if it means I can do something about it.

Jackie Baxter 26:47

So it's that difference again the the way I see it is the difference between responsibility and blame um

Responsibility Without Self Blame

Jackie Baxter 26:53

you know and that we're not blaming ourselves because as you say you know no one would willingly do that to themselves. Like what why why would you deliberately do that? You obviously wouldn't but also that if we start to understand we can start to take some responsibility for the actions that we're taking the things that we're doing the lens through which we're looking at things and that does give you that kind of feeling of empowerment doesn't it you know when you you sort of have the understanding and then you're well again like we said before it's coming back to that conscious thing rather than the unconscious isn't it that if you understand something and you're aware of it yeah then you respond or you have the choice you have choice don't you and I think you know that's that that's important is to have choice especially you know with a condition like this where you often feel like you have very little choice because everything has been taken out from underneath you right yeah yes exactly agency and control surely are are really good things.

Chris Sykes-Popham 27:58

I think any response to these conditions is understandable and I literally mean any response. It just doesn't mean that they're all going to be helpful. And I do believe that there are absolutely things we can do that are helpful. And if I think that everyone is entitled to respond in in any way they want that doesn't you know lessen or or affect other people negatively um but but yeah there are also things that I really believe that we can do that give us that agency and control. And they start definitely with a with I guess a um a belief that we can do those things and a belief that we're going to pursue them. So this idea that beliefs are important as well in order to make choices that are I don't know if right is the right word helpful maybe helpful I like helpful supportive um we have to believe that things can get better um do we have to believe better yeah maybe I think we we it it probably requires you to be open doesn't it that these things can help and I think skepticism is also fine.

Jackie Baxter 29:10

Skepticism's welcome is helpful and useful um but I think we need an openness and I think we need a curiosity as well I think we need those two things and if we have that then yeah then I think there's something to to work with for sure yeah and that openness I think is important as well because I mean we have gone so far off topic here that I'm just letting it run by the way it's good. So the whole perfectionism thing is so utterly relevant right now. And um but um you know for for me when I became unwell you know I was in the fortunate position of having never really been unwell other than you know colds and bits and pieces like that. You know I'd I'd lived quite a privileged life in that respect. And I think that meant that every time I had you know every time I was sick my body just I got better. And you know the only thing I'd ever had I think that was more serious was than that was tonsillitis and that wasn't that big a deal. You went to the doctor they gave you a magic pill and a week later you were totally fine. So I was in this world where doctors were on a pedestal um where you know they solved all of your problems there was nothing

Openness, Scepticism And Timing

Jackie Baxter 30:23

that a doctor couldn't fix. And you know I I think you know that was a privileged place to be but that was where I was and then you know long COVID came along and you know for me becoming unwell in March 2020 it was a pretty terrifying time.

Speaker 30:37

Yeah.

Jackie Baxter 30:37

I think terrifying time for everybody but I think for me being ill at that point it was was not a comfortable time to be unwell let's say and um I think you know the the world kind of changed but I was still stuck in that the doctor's going to fix me mentality and the doctor didn't fix me. The doctor didn't know anything and it took me quite a lot of time to accept that I suppose on some level that actually the doctor didn't know and that I could sit around waiting for the doctor to find out but that wasn't looking promising. Or I could start to be a little bit more open to other things. And I sort of very gently started doing that. And I think that that for me was the game changer it was when I started to be a little bit more open to things that were kind of outside of the sphere of what I understood.

Speaker 31:32

Yeah.

Jackie Baxter 31:33

And I think that can be quite a difficult thing to do and possibly more difficult for some than others. But it was a total game changer.

Chris Sykes-Popham 31:41

I went through the exact same journey I um I I was absolutely skeptical of so many things and yeah the the number one thing I was probably skeptical of was anything related to the brain brain retraining nervous system regulation anything like that I was skeptical. And I think what kind of helped me is that I had I do remember always thinking I don't really care I don't care what the solution is I don't care what helps me recover. I don't care if it's like standing on one arm waiting for Venus to be aligned with Mars at you know at night time while eating tail of newt. I don't mind I don't care like I'll do it and I'll also pay by the way I'll also pay 10 000 pounds for it if it gives me a 1% chance of recovery. And so far that kind of approach had lead me to spending my thousand pounds on on supplements I had you know I was just I would read stuff online on on Reddit or whatever and try the most ridiculous silly things. I remember I remember one time like it and it would change every like two days I would then give up and try the next thing someone someone online had told me that you know you need to be drinking loads of salted water and taking loads of ibuprofen stuff. So I was I was drinking like four liters of salted water taking these tablets every day you know and then I would crash like and I just look back now and kind of laugh um but it is that it is that it was that same openness which in in a way is like laughable some of the things I tried that led me to to actually saying well okay if if that was my mentality towards that then um what about this this other thing? If you are truly open to everything then then what about looking at the looking at the brain looking inward um so I have to thank my kind of openness. And I think skepticism is right. I think I started my journey by by being deeply skeptical by testing everything. That's how I kind of started my uh my approach into a brain a more brain focused approach we we do things when we're ready to do them don't we I think and you know I think for me I had to go through trying desperately to find a doctor who would help me before I came to the acceptance that they weren't yeah that that doctor didn't appear to exist.

Speaker 34:00

Yeah.

Jackie Baxter 34:01

And it was at that point where I felt like I kind of exhausted what I could reasonably access at that point. I mean this was 2020 2021 when medical care was not particularly accessible for for me certainly um so you know and I think everyone's limit on where that is is different. You know some people will will chase after a lot more invasive stuff than others and and again that's that's got to be where they are and and that's fine. But um I think it was having done that that I was then able to say right okay well this is this is not working um let's let's try something else and um I love what you were describing. I think it's Raylan Eagle that describes it as the eating eyeballs moment where you say I would do literally anything I would eat eyeballs if it would get me better. And like I I think we we probably don't need the disclaimer that says eyeballs is probably not the solution but you know if if you want to go try it. I would have tried it too yeah I would have tried it yeah yeah but I think you know we we all come to different places at different times and I think one of the things that I have learned through my own journey and also through working with others is that if you try to push someone into something when they're not ready for it, then it's it's not going to work. And I think it's the same reason that you know when when people try to give you all that really good advice um you know have you tried this have you tried that I did a Google search and I found this thing. And like you know those people they want to help um they want to help so hard and you know you kind of got to love them for that but also it's often not what you want to hear at the time um but you know they're they're kind of pushing stuff onto you at a time when you're probably not ready for it. It's not the right stuff at

Nervous System Regulation As A Pattern

Jackie Baxter 35:53

the right time or it's not coming from the right place. And uh and it it often doesn't end well does it when uh when that happens it's so true you need to you need to be in the right place.

Chris Sykes-Popham 36:06

You're right. I think you need to have tried loads of other stuff first. I mean obviously you need to have gone to your doctor and ruled out everything first but most people will have done that because they yeah you that's your always going to be your first port of call you have that belief that you described your doctor will fix it. And it's when they've done every single blood test going they can and they're running out of options yeah um that you might start to be open to it. But I think even then I don't think I was then I was still um yeah it's really funny I actually looking back on my journey I'd actually uh read a book that was all about mind-body connection and um you know nervous system regulation I'd read half of it and it was when I was at my lower step and none of it had um I guess none of it had kind of gone in or didn't resonate enough or what and then a few months fast forward a few months later it did it clicked and I was well on my way to recovery and then I was like I remembered this book and I was like I remember I read this book about this and I had managed to read 250 pages of this book on the exact same um subject and I and I wasn't interested in it wasn't the right time and yet what I found it even a few months later but yeah so true has to be in the right time you have to be in the right place and that actually sometimes that place isn't really early on sometimes that um sometimes it's far far better to have found it later on when you've tried everything else when you um when you have yeah yeah everything else has been done you've kind of put it to bed and we because let's be honest here's here's here's um me being honest at least I wasn't open to exploring it until I tried all the things that I wanted it to be I wanted it to be I wanted to be able to take zinc tablets and for it to disappear. I wanted for it to be something about diet change about anything else or you know some weird condition or a weird infection I'd had that then was going to disappear and then I'd take some antibiotics and then go away. The last thing of every aspect of my entire life that I wanted it to be is something about what might have been going on in in my in my brain in my head that's the that's the least popular solution when you're starting this thing and yet maybe maybe it could be the solution.

Jackie Baxter 38:15

Yeah so when you read that book it was almost like you planted the seeds and then we had like a really dry summer where there was no rain and then it was almost like you then had to wait for for the right time for them to start to grow. And that was later on.

Chris Sykes-Popham 38:32

That's a really good analogy yeah I really think it is and so many people don't load people um load of people do have again that same story don't know if you've got come across many where yeah they they try something it doesn't fully work or doesn't fully resonate and they come back sometimes years later and they'll vaguely remember oh I tried that thing or you know I or was considering it and didn't quite yeah I think that's a really good thing and and um yeah planting seeds is a useful analogy.

Jackie Baxter 39:01

Yeah I I'm a big fan of that metaphor because it's it's the idea of you have to plant something and then you still have to tend it. Yeah you know you you don't plant the seeds and they grow straight away yeah like you know you keep watering them you keep feeding them over time every single day you water them you know consistency over time and then eventually however long down the line you start to see those little green sheets and then after that they turn into flowers or vegetables or whatever it is that you're growing. Um so I'm a huge fan of that because I think one of the frustrating things certainly that I experienced and that I see in people every day is well I tried it once. Okay that's great. How can we make this a little bit more consistent and then that's where that analogy of of the seeds comes in.

Chris Sykes-Popham 39:52

Yes definitely and what we're not saying here at all is it that you know if you tried it and didn't work that it's in any way somebody's fault but we I think that was before we would we if we didn't um try it fully then we would absolutely want somebody to say oh you know have you you know um tell us more about how you're doing it if we were if this was a physio and they'd given us some exercises to help a uh a hurt knee then we would say um then we would absolutely want that physio to say oh how are you doing the exercises etc and we want them to give us some guidance then maybe that's okay here and none of that means that that you know it's their fault for not doing it right or anything like that but it can again we there's agency in control there and we can um we can have more agency in control if we're open to trying these things.

Jackie Baxter 40:37

Totally yeah and that things do have more nuance as well I mean you know if I'm teaching a breathing exercise you know I will teach the exercise and be like okay this is this is what we're doing this is why we're doing it and you know this is how we do it. But the how is nuanced because everybody is different. Some people want to do it sitting up some want to do it lying down is a really you know straightforward example. Yeah. You know, because everyone everyone's body is different everyone responds differently to something it's it's that kind of tailoring it to you as an individual. And you know I think that's probably the same with your example of a physio um you know and and and I think probably anything else you know even taking medication you need to refine the dose sometimes so it's not that it's anybody's fault if it doesn't work first time. It's okay how do we make this work for you? And then also you know using your physio example, you know, you don't do your exercises one day and it's fixed. You have to keep doing that stretch day after day after day and over time it starts to have that impact. So I think you know it the the analogy kind of works across the board, doesn't it?

Chris Sykes-Popham 41:44

I think so. And I think the other thing I've noticed about since recovering and diving into this world is that there are hundreds and hundreds hundreds of methods all broadly focused on trying to do the same thing regulate the nervous system. Breath work is one of the fundamental ways it works and is successful is by regulating the nervous system. And there are hundreds of ways of doing it and so and we also have seen if if you if we go online and we find a hundred uh recovery stories from long COVID or MECFS the vast the thing that instantly jumped out to me is that the vast majority focus on the nervous system or our stress response systems. That was the first thing that I um that I noticed and I would also recommend anyone doing is just studying the recovered and and look at the trends. But within that within the the world of nervous system regulation and brain training and everything like that there are so many different approaches that work for people and there are so many different things which help the nervous system be regulated. And for some for everyone I've never met somebody who's got the exact same things that they found useful. Instead it's like it's so much more beneficial to say okay well there's 50 key things that help regulate a nervous system and for me it's item one 17 and 49 and for someone else the other things but they're all helpful then none of them are going to you know ruin your ruin your life they're all things that everything I've come at under that comes under that banner of nervous system regulation are brilliant things that I wish I'd had in my life before anyway but some of them for me were more useful. And I think that's a useful analogy for um for this process and for anyone going through it is to say okay I'm gonna try all these things and and find out the the ones that are useful for me. And just because item number two wasn't wasn't the one that was the complete game changer um I just need to uh look at them all and consider which ones are the ones for me.

Jackie Baxter 43:32

Totally so it's like that menu isn't it you've got to try enough of them to see what it is that you like.

Chris Sykes-Popham 43:38

Yes. I like that a food metaphor good food metaphor you're you're on fire with the metaphors today they're very useful.

Jackie Baxter 43:46

I am apparently we use six metaphors a minute someone told me that wow wow I think that was the stat which uh which seems totally wild.

Chris Sykes-Popham 43:55

Well you're hitting you're hitting the quota for sure it is useful though it's useful for explaining these things I like it.

Jackie Baxter 44:01

I I think so I think so um now Chris we came along here to talk about brain training and nervous system regulation and we have gone off on a complete tangent um which was awesome.

Chris Sykes-Popham 44:12

I feel like we've talked about it from every other way other than actually directly talking about it so far. Yeah.

Jackie Baxter 44:19

I think we have I think we have so I would love it if you would come back and have the actual conversation that we plan to have today another time. Yeah of course but um would you mind um just to wrap up today's conversation um what would be your sort of top couple of things that you would have wanted to know when you were going through your journey um so what what would you either have wanted to know or what advice would you give yourself now to Chris from mid-journey?

Chris Sykes-Popham 44:56

That's a tough question. I think the one that we just touched on is really important. I think so I think I think firstly maybe I'd say study the recovered. When you study the recovered which is something I only did when I recovered which is obviously amusing but after I recovered I dived into this world and I realized that there are in fact hundreds and hundreds of people online sharing their stories about how I've been recovered because as I've said it's such a profound thing to go through. And when you do that you see a massive massive trend and I like to say that because I think it's really important we test these theories and to be impartial and when I did that when I looked at it and said okay what are the trends I can see here as an impartial observer um I can say I should say I probably was still biased, wasn't it because I just recovered in that way, but I couldn't help but notice that like the very vast majority recovered through doing Nervous system work, regulation work, brain training, neuroscience-based stuff, whatever you want to call it. And I can't I came to that from being a deep, deep skeptic. And uh so I think when

What Chris Wishes He Knew

Chris Sykes-Popham 46:03

you do that, you say, okay, there is something here. And the next is to broadly follow that trend and um to follow that message. And I guess the first thing that message, this is gonna, I'm sort of segueing into point number two, is that having a look at that theory, because when the theory of brain training, the theory of mind-body work, the theory of nervous system regulation, because the first thing it tells you is that um what's going on in your brain can affect your body. And I remember hearing that, and I was like, okay, well, is that true? And I was like, well, yeah, fine. And they give you, and you're given examples of like, okay, well, when you when you see a tasty burger, I'm inserting the food that makes me salivate, then you all salivate before you even start eating it. So you've seen it, nothing's happened, your body's having a physical reaction. Okay, cool, fine. And like when you're watching a film and you get goosebumps, okay, again, fine. But the next thing I was like, okay, but it's a big jump from me salivating to me as a formally fit person, not being able to move off the sofa, not being able to do anything, barely be able to remember what's happened that day, all of these lists of 20 symptoms. And so the next thing you're learning is that, okay, well, the the they tell your next thing that you're being told is that your nervous system is dysregulated. And I remember kind of thinking, well, okay, well, I'm a bit not really sure about that. Like, can my nervous system really affect every part of my body? What can it? And I remember like Googling, and and I honestly think this is a useful thing to do, right? Is if, and it's not scientific, I'm not saying this is irrefutable proof at all. You need to go through your everyone needs to go through their own process, right? But if you type into Chat GPT or you type into any AI thing, can a dysregulated nervous system contribute to and then your symptom? Not your condition, but your symptom. And you'll do that with write down every single symptom you have and say, can it contribute to this? And that was useful for me because uh this theory that your nervous system can control every other part of your um body and produce all these wild symptoms, because before I was like, okay, yeah, great, but what about mitochondrial dysfunction? What about like this constant low-level cold I've got? And yeah, I would just ask myself that 50 50 different ways. And I think by that point my brain had become quite skeptical. So I really wanted to know it'd work. And when I realized that this theory was the single theory that, oh, the only theory I'd come across so far that did actually explain everything and you know, give provided a valid reason for what was going on, that helped me a huge amount too. Um, so I think exploring those two things, the theory of nervous system dysregulation and uh and then looking at people who have recovered, who have fully recovered, I think is really, really useful place to start. Everyone should be allowed to come into it and with a completely open mind, and and whatever conclusions people come out with are fine, they're valid. Uh, but I'm I'm so so glad and so so grateful uh I did that.

Jackie Baxter 48:58

Yeah, absolutely. Um Chris, thank you so much. Um, we haven't talked about what we plan to talk about, but I think what we did talk about was at least as valid, if not more so. So thank you so much for doing this, and it's been a lot of fun.

Chris Sykes-Popham 49:14

Yeah, thank you. Yeah, I appreciate it. Yeah, maybe we'll come back and finish the questions if anyone has any. And uh I would, yeah, I would certainly welcome people's thoughts and questions and um yeah, and skepticisms as well, because um, yeah, it's a big part of it, isn't it? But thank you for having me on. I really appreciate it. It's nice to talk to you.

Jackie Baxter 49:33

Thank you.